INTRO
hello hello and welcome to the 360 method a weekly podcast where we talk about everything autism 360. each week we’ll be catching you up with what’s going on in the program chatting with team members and talking all things mindset as well as exploring relevant ideas that autism parents think about today hooray we are chatting with dr jennifer welker hello hey how’s it going so good jen is a long time coach here at the program a special education teacher and a bcba and today we get to chat with jen about prompting what it is how it can help build skills and how we can harness its power in our everyday lives so i am your host i’m ella bailey i’m an autism 360 veteran coach and explorer of all things parenting supports before becoming an autism 360 parenting member a team member i worked in psychological research and in behavioral psychology so welcome to you our lovely listeners um thank you so much for joining uh myself and jen today we care about you we care about your thoughts and whether you’re a program member or not we would love to hear from you so please drop us a line at hello autism360.com we would love your feedback you can leave jen some questions and we can um grab her back on answer them at a later stage so before we get started i’d like to acknowledge the gadigal and wangle people of the euro nation on whose land i live and work and from where this podcast is being broadcast today and i would also like to make the disclaimer this podcast no matter how fancy jen is it does not substitute for medical advice if you are concerned about yourself or about a loved one please do access a medical professional so jen hooray today yes yes we’re going to be chatting about prompting um and everyday life with jen so i want to start with why are you so passionate about prompting yen tell us tell us why this makes you um so excited yeah absolutely so when we think about prompting i mean it sounds like a fancy term right like oh i’m going to prompt you to do something but truly we are surrounded by prompts every day it’s really just a form of support and prompts help teach us things so i’m passionate because it’s super relevant and it kind of expands over a multitude of situations and so if you can kind of harness the power of prompting then you can really do a lot to teach your kiddos individuals learners family members whoever it is that you know may benefit from that and whether you realize it or not you’re probably using it already so um it’s just it’s a way to support each other and so why wouldn’t we want to do that you know yeah absolutely and i think um something is is totally um
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on the money what you said just then is that actually we’re all surrounded by prompts all the time we were just mentioning before that you know we have a written prompt in the form of an outline about what we’re going to chat about today and that’s also a prompt isn’t it exactly so yeah here we think like oh you know i don’t know how to use prompts or i don’t know the different kinds of prompts and so i’m hoping that today we can just kind of identify and break down the different prompts that are out there and just realize that you know because we’re all individuals we all respond to different prompts differently some better than others and so that’s why knowing many kinds and having examples of each is really helpful because you might try one thing and think this isn’t working but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t something else that would work just beautifully so i’m hoping today we can go through all that um you know it helps reduce frustration when you have the right kind of prompts and it takes something that’s uncertain or maybe you know kind of not concrete and it can make it certain and concrete which is such a big deal for some of our individuals who have trouble with abstract thinking yeah that’s such an interesting point and i think from a parent coaching perspective i’m often thinking about okay well how are the strategies that i’m suggesting the support strategies that i’m suggesting for supporting an individual how are they affecting the the mental health the mindset the morale of the parents and carers of these individuals um and i think the prompting does a lot for giving parents and carers a framework from which to understand um how they can support somebody in a specific goal and i think that when they have that they can feel a little bit impact a little bit less dependent on therapeutic individuals therapeutic professionals because they know what the next step is going to be they know what success looks like they know what um is going to help their loved one to feel um more more independent which is the goal and um what parents are often aiming for yes and that’s actually just what i was thinking is the whole reason that prompting is an amazing tool is because it does help build independence and you would think it’s kind of opposite like oh if i prompt i’m helping so maybe i’m not contributing towards their independence but that is absolutely not the case and you know as we dive in i hope that we can kind of see how just knowing a little bit of strategy with prompting we can actually move more towards independence which is always what we want yeah absolutely well why don’t we get started with some of the fundamentals of prompting that you feel like would benefit parents and carers to understand i’m gonna give you kind of open slather to really um teach us a little bit about you know the basics of the topic yeah absolutely so i definitely want to you know address the different prompts that are out there give some examples and there is a hierarchy of prompts and so when i say that i really just mean um prompts that are more intrusive to helping an individual and then to less intrusive and so because we want to build independence using the most intrusive prompt all the time you might get a little stuck and so knowing kind of oh what’s the next level of prompting i could go to and what does that look like that’s a fundamental that’s really going to help us and so on that topic too like it’s called fading the prompts so you might start here because your individual really needs that level of support but your goal is never to stay there but to move towards something less intrusive or less frequent or you know whatever it is so that your learner can take on more of that on themselves and so um are we ready to talk examples of prompts yeah absolutely i think it will be helpful just to define what you mean by intrusive okay yeah more broadly
CHAPTER II
yes so intrusive is just kind of how how much it can interfere with or just be i guess more burdensome on the individual um so for example we have physical prompting okay so let’s say that because i work with three and four year olds frequently on a daily basis and so let’s say that i’m like okay come here and that’s actually just a verbal prompt like come here and then they’re like oh but this ball over here so much more fun so i’m gonna go this way and they need some guidance because they’re not understanding come here so if i have to physically go over and like guide them oh we’re coming this way you know there’s nothing wrong with that but that’s not something that you want to be doing every day all the time because it’s not um it’s not feasible you’re not always in close proximity sometimes there are safety issues where it’s like i just need you to you know move now so you don’t get hit by something that’s passing by um and so a physical prompt is important and there’s a place for it but it is more intrusive upon the child i have to touch them i have to you know walk over here and i have to kind of exert myself and so that’s um again time and place for it but it’s not something i would want to do all the time it can really get in the way of their independence okay absolutely that makes sense i’d love to talk examples what are um some common ones that you see or ones that you work with um program families on yeah absolutely so i’m just gonna name some of the different types real quick in order and then i’ll go back and dissect them a bit so if we’re talking um from the most intrusive which would also equal less independent okay we have that full physical prop so i have to actually physically help you know um what to do to get where you need to go then there’s a partial physical which we can talk about the difference soon there’s modeling um there’s gestural and then we have verbal which is probably our most common type of prompt that we use in everyday life and finally visual comes in at the least intrusive and builds the most independent and that’s why if you have had anything to do with autism 360 in the past you have heard visuals visuals visuals and why they’re great and um i definitely agree and and here’s why so um talking about full physical again it’s that hand over hand prompt it’s that physically guiding a learner’s body to complete an action so you know story time i have kiddos and every day we’re just working on imitation and they’re so cute you know they’re sitting there and they’re like ready to work and i’m like okay can you do this or can you clap and they’re like no you know and so initially i may have to kind of help them bring their hands up and go oh clap yes and i’m doing it for them and then they’re like oh okay so sometimes that full physical prompt is necessary to build that motor planning that brain body connection and for them to just understand my expectation so that’s something at home too i think we use so many verbal props where we’re like go do this go you know go do this and our child or individual might just be kind of sitting there and we think they’re being defiant they don’t want to listen that’s not always the case sometimes it’s literally like i’m not processing what you mean by that directive so um sometimes we do have to start with like let me um help you get to that point where you’re doing doing that um so then then you can go to a partial physical which is a little bit less intrusive but you’re you’re kind of getting the learner started but not finishing it for them so again i had a kiddo who is now in kindergarten and so he we really had to break steps down for him even to clap
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because he just his body was just kind of like i don’t i’m not very responsive to things like that so at first we would help him clap but then he came to kind of rely on that like he’d wait for us because he’s like why kind of like that touch i kind of like when you put your hands on my hands um so we began to just lift his elbows up and i would support here and then he would look at me and i’d wait he’d go and so then i’m like wow you’re clapping awesome and and then that was reinforcing and so i was able to move from a full physical where i’m hand over hand to i’m just kind of getting your elbows up and then you can do it and then finally after some practice he was doing it all on his own which is super rewarding to see as a as a therapist a teacher and then a parent absolutely absolutely i think um there’s something uh a special especially um especially important to the way that the coaching at autism 360 works which is and again i i mean i brought it up before which is that parents need to feel seen and validated and hurt in this process as well and that’s okay it’s okay to say it feels good when i’m able to teach my kids something and they respond that’s not something that we um demonize here at the program it’s okay to have emotional responses to your kiddo picking something up or needing you less um i think i um feel really passionate about that in case you can’t tell yeah enough i mean and that’s our goal right like we celebrate the littlest things um and and in my school um you know it’s a public school setting we have you know the mainstream classrooms along with special education classrooms that focus on you know functional life skills and i think that sometimes the mainstream teachers like walk by and hear me going whoa you peed on the party and they’re just like wow what do they do in there i listened to another really good podcast called two peas in a podcast um and they are two mums of kids with um additional knees and uh they have reclaimed the idea of milestones from something that can be really tricky and sometimes triggering for parents of kids you know with complex needs to smile stones right like our milestones might not look like everybody else’s milestone they’re a small stone for us if your kiddo like pees on the toilet and they’re nine and it is the biggest deal ever that is the most awesome smile stone um and i’m totally disseminating the use of the word smile stone so you can take that and run with it as far as yeah i like that i probably am going to use it actually thank you for that um yes and that is it’s and it’s really a mindset shift isn’t it like just to be able to look at these things as a process and to know that it’s okay and parents families they’re all in a different place in this journey um but as long as you’re working towards that independence and just things that help your family life run smoother i mean that’s our goal you know and and every family’s different so it’s not going to look the same for everyone but the the point is
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our mindset is okay with you know slow progress as long as it’s progress or you know you may be here and i may be here but that’s okay because every day we are learning and we are getting there and so that’s prompting aligns with that so well because it is like a more tangible tangible and like specific way of seeing how you move from here to there and that’s what i love about it um so i talked about full physical and partial physical which are both really great um thinking of other times you might use those for a littler one maybe they’re learning how to do a puzzle or like putting the shapes inside the sorter you know fitting the circle into the circle hole and the square into the square hole and again they just their little fine motor skills are trying to get it in there but they’re struggling so before they reach that point of frustration a prompt is simply just to come in with that physical or partial physical and helping them you know fit the shape in how it goes and then good job you got it in and so those are things i do every day so they’re easy examples for me to think of but you know you might have someone who has more of a physical disability or handicapped and they are just needing to learn how to um you know more use of their their arms or their legs or something and so we see it all the time in physical therapy like i’m going to support you uh maybe hold under your you know your arms while you take some steps and get stronger and no one would ever look at that and be like well you’re helping too much i mean if i let go the person might fall so think of it as like totally a support where you are showing and offering a level of um you know strengthening until your individual gets to that point where they’re strong enough to do it on their own and so that’s you know that’s why it’s exciting um so the next one is modeling so that this is pretty cut and dry you know uh i’m gonna show you how to do it and then give you a chance to try doing it back so one form of modeling that i love besides just like okay um you know first pick up your plate and then throw it in the trash after breakfast so i’m gonna do it and show you and then your turn okay good job you know that’s that’s easy but also video modeling i cannot tell you how much video modeling has helped with the simplest routines um around the house so i’ve used it for potty training i’ve used it for washing hands a lot of functional skills even like taking bites at the table or or just knowing what it looks like to sit as a family um our kiddos and our adults and me and you and all of us we like watching videos we do you’re watching a video right now probably youtube is a thing right exactly and there’s a reason that youtubers like people are like i want to be a youtuber when i grow up because it’s it’s a it’s a form of entertainment and so we kind of can tap into that and just show um individuals like how to do everyday things that they otherwise struggle with because it’s repetitive it’s consistent it’s reliable and that is something that many of our learners look for like i need to trust this to not change so that i know what to do and so a video model is great um but so is a model right then and there um i was actually babysitting one time more than one time this happened and the the little five-year-old like gets on youtube and i’m just like what are you watching you know gotta gotta make sure it’s okay and she’s watching another like two girls play barbies um yeah in this dollhouse and they’re like hello how are you today oh i’m fine thank you do you want to order pizza yes let’s order pizza and then they go through the whole like script of a play situation and i’m sitting there thinking this is a video model for appropriate play and every like any typically neurotypical child would like to watch this
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so you know it’s it’s very normal for us to be drawn to these things so modeling is a very very strong prompt that you can use but you can also fade because you do you are using it to teach so once your learner starts doing those things more independently then you kind of need to move on to okay i don’t need to show you every time but maybe they still need some support some reminders so that’s where some of these other other prompts on the hierarchy come in the next one is gestural so this could be your pointing to something using eye contact which this can be hard if your individual doesn’t really like that eye contact so maybe that wouldn’t be for everyone but i might like eye gaze to show you where to go or where to look um tapping an area to bring attention to it so this is you know pretty simple um but the reason that i like it is because if i know that a child at school for example um let’s say we say okay it’s time to line up or it’s time to get your backpack and you know that your child knows how to do this right but they’re just not quite there instead of modeling the whole process okay we’re gonna get our backpack or physically being like go get your backpack a gestural prop could simply just be like holding up the backpack and tapping it or pointing and then put it right back where it was and then you know the child’s like oh my backpack yes i forgot for a second what that word meant or i was was not listening so um gestural you know i might point like it’s time to go to the bathroom and just kind of wait and they’re like looking at you like oh yeah okay all right got it so it also gives time for processing right like words they disappear straight away as soon as they’re out of our mouth they’re gone a gesture can linger a little longer it engages visual processing it engages um kinetic processing to give that person longer to to process your instruction which we love yes yes and it really also can help reduce or prevent frustration in a situation where maybe like me constantly saying something to you is just annoying you know i find it’s very common for us to overwhelm those around us with our words so if i am constantly like uh go pick up your toys hey go pick up your toys i said go pick up your toys go pick up your choice so it’s that definition of insanity again like is just doing the same thing over and over and expecting this you know a different result like right if your person’s not responding to that there’s a reason and so what i like about a gestural prompt especially is i can take out my verbals and i can just be like and just and you know they’re like okay got it got it um and so it can it can prevent that frustration of like now i’m not doing the task just because i’m so like auditorily overwhelmed by your voice and for those listening um jen is making hand signals to um indicate and you know gesture to to somebody to give them an instruction without needing to um uh use woods yes yes a lot of pointing and referencing i need to illustrate my my talking hands exactly um okay so moving on up the hierarchy to more independent and less intrusive we get to the verbal props and so this is again probably the most common thing that we use um there’s direct verbal so i’m telling you exactly what to do and then there’s indirect so that might be more of a leading kind of a verbal so like i’m asking you a question i’m queuing or giving you a hint but it’s not as direct with the answer so again these are super necessary especially if you’re working on like expressive language with someone and they just don’t have the words um or they don’t know the right words to say and you’re you’re telling them essentially um oh you want to play with those friends over there um you can say can i play with you and then you gave them that verbal prompt um but then again once you prompt that a few times you do want to look at fading it back to more of an indirect so oh what could you say when you want to play with friends and give them a chance to process that information and recall it for more independence and so verbals are important they’re around every day and they aren’t necessary however i do think we overuse them a lot of the time i really do super interesting i think um something you mentioned um really speaks to an interest area of mine which is when kiddos have um a anxiety around demands right so a lot of demand we don’t often a lot of parents and carers don’t recognize that they’re placing demands by using verbal prompts so
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when we’re using an indirect verbal prompt that might be something like uh the path is full so you’re you are giving a verbal prompt you are um explaining something in their environment that’s indicative of a required behavior but you’re not placing a direct demand and so when we’re using in you know demand reduction language um or kind of end state language that’s an indirect verbal prompt that helps our kiddo to feel safe with managing that demand uh without spiking their um demand anxiety which we are all about yeah no that’s a great point because sometimes and i have to admit like i get like this too maybe with my my husband my partner like just because he said i should i automatically am like maybe i don’t want to because i’m definitely not doing that now yeah nothing you support me that doesn’t like to be told what to do i think that’s a big part of all of us yes yes we’re all a little demand avoidant um for sure but i used an indirect prompt like that just today with a kiddo who was she i don’t think she was feeling well i really think she wanted to go home um but that wasn’t able to happen unfortunately at the time and so we were just trying to kind of um move on and and make the day as pleasant as possible and so she sat on the floor and she just kind of put all her weight into it like i’m staying here and she was in a doorway and not the best spot so you know we started by asking her verbally you know straightforward like well what would you like to do and she was just like no no no and so i went indirect um and i went and got some kinetic sand and some pom-poms that happened to be a little like build an ice cream kit and i just was like oh cool i can build an ice cream and then i sat it down in front of her but not right to her and i started opening the box and i’m like whoa i want to do this and i like walk towards her seat and she like pops up and kind of follows me and i’m like oh did you want to do it too okay and so there was it yeah that very indirect leading of like i’m presenting something i’m cueing you that it’s there but i’m not directly telling you and then she picked up on oh this is available okay yeah i’m totally ready to get up and get going so and that you know that was also a little bit of modeling on my part you know a little bit of some other things but it prevented me from having to physically guide her and that’s what we want to do um is try to avoid you know touching when they’re uncomfortable with that or um forcing um and again there’s a place for it but in in situations like that i’d rather not have to lift you up off the floor and move you you’re going to get upset you know you just absolutely feel good we want to let that you know be as independent as possible and be as least invasive as possible yes so that helps with that and then the final prompt which is the most independent and the least intrusive least invasive is visual prompting everyone’s favorite here autism 360. hooray yes so pictures schedules um written words checklists color coding highlighting all of the things that again i think we use in daily life all the time and we don’t even think about it and yet sometimes we expect our kiddos or individuals to go without a visual and we think that if we just tell them that they’re going to get it but it’s not enough so i think the prompts that i encourage the most to parents carers and at school are visual props um and they just once again i can take my verbals out which can be annoying and hard to process um it allows consistency it provides concrete information and input um there was a child just today that was very upset and very dysregulated and because of this dysregulation he was being a bit unsafe so um he we had him in a safe space but he was just so you know terribly dysregulated that i knew that talk yeah i knew talking to him was only going to make it worse and even feed into it maybe a bit so um i quickly at the end of the day i created a visual but prior to that i was like what can i get and i grab a white board and i just kind of write a couple words like calm hands quiet mouth or quiet body or something and i just held it up and was just you know it was visual it was gestural and i just kind of waited like or you might have a breathing you know symbol or something like that and you know it took a few minutes but he did finally understand like okay i’m ready and then we were able to talk and make some choices and move past that hard situation but and and then he needed a schedule to get through the rest of the day which is no shocker like he was like ah there’s so much i have left to do and i’m like well let’s make a checklist so i write it out real quick and i’m like um you know science math station library home and then you know he was kind of like oh i just went home and i’m like that’s okay only three things than home and i really just and i used a timer along with that for each section and then he crossed it off so that was those are all different kinds of visual props that totally supported him and instead of having to scream and be upset and disregulated all afternoon it was short-lived and then we made it through the rest of the day with extra prompting so i would not be able to do what i do and see the success that i see without prompts um so it’s very very important yeah absolutely well i think we should move on to our um parent question because um this is something that i see a lot for um parents in the program you know a lot of parents come to us at different stages but um we see a lot of parents getting roadblocks around toileting around building their kids independence with um you know bowel movements and those kinds of things so we have um an awesome question from chopra in adelaide um who says
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i have a four and a half year old son uh who we we are working with on toilet training he will go with us but only ever after we have asked him to go once we have said do you want to go to the toilet he will go with us how do you how do we get him to ask to go to the toilet without us asking all the time when will he be independent yeah and that is yeah i’ve seen that happen yeah many times and it’s great that they’re even to that point where they’ll totally oh my gosh such a win absolutely yeah so that’s that’s good in and of itself but we can still always build independence and so um and i don’t know if i use the term prompt fading too much yet but prompt fading is kind of what needs to happen here so if you’re asking a question think about what kind of prompt that is it’s a verbal prompt probably indirect like do you need to go to the bathroom it might even be considered direct in that case and verbal prompts they are harder to fade but the thing that is more independent building prompt wise is a visual and even a gestural which is a different place on the hierarchy but that’s i think it would still be okay here um so for example you might print a picture of the bathroom or you know just a toilet off and you might just hold it up and that’s a cue to be like do you need to go or you might just point to the bathroom and gesture like do you have to go you know like i you know i’m asking you this question um setting a timer um throughout the day that that child can start checking on their own like timer goes off and then there’s a visual right there and they’re like timer bathroom oh yeah i should probably go and then yeah you know essentially you might have a clock if they can do that a vibrate reminder um so just think about how to replace your questions and your verbals with something more natural in the environment um and just you could build it into the schedule too or leave those visual hints where uh you have you know the bathroom picture like all over the house and the child is bound to see it at some point and so then if they look at it it’s more likely to trigger in their brain oh do i need to go yeah maybe i should go um and so that’s that’s how i would kind of address that situation trying to use some other things besides just questions yeah absolutely i think that’s a good one chopra um i hope that that is helpful please get in touch if um that is something that you give a try because we would love to hear how that works out for you um
OUTRO
jen it is so lovely um to hear um your thoughts on this one before we finish up are there any action points or um things that you would like our parents to specifically take home from what we’ve chatted about today yeah i think just to break it down um you know think of a scenario where your child or individual learner could become more independent something that would make life better for all of all of the family um and and don’t feel guilty about that either don’t feel guilty about you know this is going to make my life easier it’s that’s okay that makes it a functional and an and valid point to work on so think about that and then using the types of prompts just kind of make a list of how you could support your learner with the different types of props look at that and think you know what’s most feasible for us or where can i start and build the most success and then don’t get stuck on that one prompt though how can you fade it to get them to be more independent so just think of a scenario list out the prompts and what they could look like in that scenario and then finally make a plan to move from most to least intrusive and watch that independence grow oh how good is that we love it um thank you so much for joining us today for our um program parents um if you would like to see more of jan we have some really interesting um coach panel recordings which jen um really generously shares her wisdom and knowledge with our parents so hop on the portal chat with her about that and we will be back next week uh with another topic relevant to what autism parents think about um so we will you know hear hear from somebody else then and until then think360.
